Kuleba, Zelensky's Foreign minister: "Dear Mrs Meloni, now help us get the fighter jets"

He is Volodymyr Zelesky’s number two, Ukraine’s most important diplomatic voice. He oversees the European and Euro-Atlantic integration of his country, he is the minister of Foreign Affairs of the Ukrainian president, and in this long and exclusive interview with Il Foglio - one year after Russia’s invasion - Dmytro Kuleba agrees to talk about everything.

He agrees to speak about the taboos of the West, of the future of Europe, to talk on the imminent spring counteroffensive, and to talk also of the special relationship with Italy – on the day of Giorgia Meloni’s visit to Kyiv.

 

Minister, how do you win this war?

“We are already winning. Both, on the battlefield and on the platforms of international organizations and forums. The world took sides with Ukraine since the early days of the full-scale war. We have consolidated around us a large international coalition and convinced the whole world that Russian aggression against Ukraine is a direct threat to the world order. We have become a candidate country for membership of the European Union. We have consolidated unprecedented support in the UN. We have also persuaded, traditionally neutral countries, convincing them to take our side. An unprecedented number of sanctions have been imposed against Russia, which are already significantly undermining its ability to continue the war against Ukraine. At the same time, there are still many trials ahead and a lot of work to free all our territory from the invaders. Achieving this outcome depends both, on resilience and unity within Ukraine, and on the help and support of our friends from outside”.

 

What does it mean for Ukraine to win the war?

“Only the complete restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity will fully restore Europe’s security, international order, and respect for the UN Charter. If someone offers to sacrifice the Ukrainian territories for the sake of the illusion of pace, such a person must honestly admit that he is ready to sacrifice European security somewhat, the security of his country and of the world. It is obvious that if this aggression is not defeated, Russia will simply take a break and then continue the war even more fervently. Speaking at the Munich Security Conference the other day, President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky said that we all believe in Ukraine’s victory in 2023 and are working towards it. Today, all of Ukraine has faith in victory. I invite the whole world to believe in Ukraine as we believe in it. Don’t ask how long the war will last. Ask – what else you can do - to hasten its conclusion with Ukraine’s victory. In 2023, the country’s diplomacy will make every effort to provide the army with everything it needs at the front, as well as to implement the Ukrainian Peace Formula proposed by President Zelensky. This ten-step plan leads to a just peace, effective guarantees of security for our country, lays the foundations for reforming the entire international security system based on respect for the United Nations Charter”.

 

Minister, what do you think are the values that the West has rediscovered thanks to its support for Ukraine?

“Ukraine’s struggle, for its life and freedom, has awakened the West and made it stronger. Today, Ukrainians are more united than ever, all of Europe and a wider circle of Western countries are equally united in their support for Ukraine. During this year, our partners and friends have shown not only solidarity, but also the ability to make - difficult but vital decisions - together. They have shown that they act in harmony, that they go beyond their comfort zone to achieve the common goal of helping Ukraine, which today defends the security and well-being, of every European family of every peace-loving country in the world”.

 

What weapons does Ukraine need, from Europe and Italy, to keep gaining ground, in the reconquest of the territories taken from Russia? Can you explain it in detail?

“Among the weapons that Ukraine currently needs the most are artillery ammunition, artillery, tanks, armored vehicles, and air defense system. We also call on our partners to immediately start training Ukrainian pilots on Western fighter jets. The decision to supply fighter aircraft will be made sooner or later, and we need to prepare now. Over the previous year, President Zelensky’s diplomatic team had the task of unlocking political decisions on the supply of seven major types of weapons. We’ve already unlocked six of the seven. Anti-tank weapons, Western artillery, anti-aircraft missiles, anti-aircraft systems, tanks, and long-range missiles. Only the planes remain, but they will be unlocked too. And if, last year, my key word in all meetings was the word 'weapons', today there are two words: speed and reliability. Speed and reliability of arms supplies. This is crucial. I must point out that Italy’s military assistance is extremely important to us, at this fateful moment in the struggle for life. We are grateful for the decisions made. Italy has proven to be on the right side of history and seeks to end the war quickly with a just peace. We expect this support to continue and increase”.

 

Ukraine openly states that in the coming months, it will launch a new muscular counteroffensive against Russian units, many of which are deeply entrenched in combat positions, which include a network of trenches and anti-tank obstacles. How can the defense strategy against Russia change at this stage of the war?

“First, Russia hasn't stopped its offensive even for a week. Indeed, the Russians are now increasing their aggression and trying to advance along the entire front line. They’ve mobilized in the fall. Some were immediately thrown into battle, most of them are already dead, though Russia never achieved its goals. Another part was sent to training centers. Now, Putin is throwing them into battle in a desperate attempt to turn the tide in his favor. But we see that trained Russian recruits are no different from those who have not gone through training. The pressure from the Russians is very strong, and right now it is very difficult for our military, but they are holding on heroically. Every day, we push partners: please, do everything you can to accelerate the delivery of weapons and ammunition, which is a vital need. At the same time, a detailed strategy of our counteroffensive, or an analysis of Russia’s positions, it is mainly the responsibility of our military. My action is on the diplomatic front. And the main goal of President Zelensky’s diplomatic team is to provide our military with the necessary weapons and partner supports”.

 

What were the weapons offered by Italy that so far have allowed you to obtain the greatest results?

“I am grateful to the Italian government, both former and present, for sending weapons and military equipment since the beginning of the full-scale war. Italy, so far, has already provided Ukraine with five defense aid packages – worth around 1 billion euros. All these actions have saved thousands of Ukrainian lives and we will always be grateful to them. I also want to emphasize that military aid to Ukraine is not charity, it is Italy's best investment in its long-term security and stability of the entire European continent for the next decade”.

 

The West has so far given great support to the resistance of Ukraine. New sanctions on oil have also triggered on February 5th. What is missing, besides weapons, to be able to offer Ukraine additional support compared to the current one?

“I have already stated more than once, both publicly and in personal conversations with colleagues, that the pressure of sanctions on Russia can and must be increased. We insist on – tough sanctions – against the Russian Federation's missile and drone industry. This is one of the ways to stop Russian missile terrorism and protect peaceful Ukrainian cities and critical infrastructure. The disconnection of the rest of Russian banks from Swift, the total ban on Russian propaganda, and the introduction of sanctions in the field of telecommunications technologies, nuclear energy, and other sectors remain crucial”.

 

Is it correct to say that the real turning point in the war will occur when there will be the structing of a Ukrainian corridor capable of breaking up the territory occupied by the Russians at the beginning of the invasion?

“Like all Ukrainians, I believe in our armed forces. They work every day to win. And I urge you to believe in Ukraine. Over the past year, we have repeatedly proved the skeptics wrong and that we are capable of the impossible. There have been many turning points over the past year, and the speed of further military victories depends on the speed of military support to Ukraine, from our partners. More than fifty states have already joined the strengthening of Ukraine's defense potential within the framework of the contact group in the 'Ramstein' format. This shows that our partners believe in Ukraine's victory. We greatly appreciate their support. At the same time, we understand that Russia still dreams of seizing the initiative and has not given up plans to destroy Ukraine. That is why it is now of paramount importance, for partner states, to provide Ukraine with the weapons it needs to resist Russian aggression and to speed up the deliveries that have already been promised”.

 

Over the past few days, several observers have reported the presence of numerous air defenses deployed in Moscow, signaling fears of attacks on the Russian capital. Are Russia's concerns justified?

“You should ask the Russians what they are so afraid of there. And Muscovites, and other Russians, should ask the leadership of their state why they were told on TV a year ago that Russia would capture Kyiv in three days, and today they are setting up air defenses on the rooftops of Moscow”.

 

A few weeks ago, China chose to strengthen its relationship with Iran, one of the countries that are helping Russia in the war against Ukraine. Members of the Chinese government, with concern to Iran, said that "China appreciates Iran's sincerity and flexibility, supports Iran in safeguarding its legitimate rights and interests and calls on the parties to remain committed to dialogue and negotiation”. After a year of war, is China's role still ambiguous or is it fully within the complicity with Russia?

“The other day, I held another round of negotiations with a member of the Political Bureau, head of the Foreign Affairs Office of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China, Wang Yi. We have been in contact throughout the year, and currently, our communication format remains the highest level of regular political dialogue between Ukraine and China. During our negotiations, we agreed that the principle of territorial integrity enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations is of paramount importance to both of our states. Therefore, any initiative aimed at a peaceful outcome must be based on respect for the principle of the territorial integrity of Ukraine”.

 

The Turkish premier, Erdoğan, has frequently said that Ankara is ready to provide diplomatic support and to assume the role of mediator to guarantee "permanent peace between Russia and Ukraine". What is your response to those in the West who consider Ukraine's will to reconquer all captured territories as an impossible mission destined to prolong the war indefinitely?

“I think it is incorrect to set against peace with the return of all Ukrainian territories. True peace is impossible without restoring the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Peace without the return of our territories is the freezing of the conflict. We know that such peace will only be a respite for the Kremlin before a new attack. You see – no country in the world wants peace more than Ukraine. But we seek – a just and lasting – peace, not a fake Russian one. There will be no demarcation lines or new “Minsk agreements”. We went through everything; all this does not work. Ukraine, Germany, and France sincerely tried to diplomatically end the war in such ways, but Russia simply used this time to prepare genocidal aggression. It is naive to hope that this time Moscow will behave somewhat differently. Last year, the President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky presented the Peace Formula at G20 summit. Let me remind you that the Peace Formula consists of ten points: from radiation safety to restoring the territorial integrity of our state, from energy security to the return of all prisoners of war, and deportees, held on Russian territory. This is now one of the key tasks for our state - to involve the world in the concrete implementation of the Peace Formula. Regarding Turkey's involvement, President Zelensky recently held talks with President Erdogan regarding Turkey's support in the repatriation of Kremlin political prisoners and prisoners, as well as Turkey's participation in the implementation of the Peace Formula".

 

Are you also convinced that if the Church, and the Vatican, had given full and direct support to the Ukrainian people in time, the war would not have reached the point it is today? General Mark Milley, after the Ramstein summit, told that “From a military standpoint, I still maintain that for this year, it would be very, very difficult to militarily eject Russian forces from every inch of Russian-occupied Ukraine.” “Look, a year ago we heard statements that Ukraine would not last three days after a full-scale attack by Russia. Reality has refuted these claims. I think the issue is not in the position of the Vatican but in the position of Russia, which does not seek, and has never sought, peace. We maintain a constant and trusting dialogue with the Holy See and are convinced that supporting Ukraine is the only possible position in a situation where there is an aggressor on one side, and a country exercising its right of self-defense – according to the Charter of the United Nations – on the other side”.

 

A few weeks ago, your minister said you “Welcomed Italy’s decision to join the core group on the establishment of a Special tribunal for the crime of aggression against Ukraine and called for sanctions on Russia’s missile/drone industry”. What can change with the establishment of a special court?

“The strategic need of holding Russia accountable for the crime of aggression is to prevent future wars and punish evil. Establishing a court is one way to restore justice. As Olena Zelenska emphasized in Davos: “That was what the dignity of every person who died under the rubble of his own home, who has survived in the basement of Mariupol, and who dreamed of salvation in Bucha, hiding from Russian torturers, required”. You see, the crime of aggression committed by the highest political and military leadership of Russia against Ukraine poses a threat to the entire world community. Leaving its perpetrators unpunished can be a dangerous signal – that the world is not dominated by law, but by force. The launch of this apparatus is crucial since, currently, there is no international court or tribunal that can try Russia's political, and military leadership, for committing the crime of aggression against Ukraine. The establishment of the Special Tribunal is filling this gap. The establishment of the Special Tribunal will in no way prevent further investigation of crimes, committed by the Russian Federation, by the International Criminal Court. The International Criminal Court remains a key organ of international criminal justice, and Ukraine actively cooperates with it. For instance, a law on amendments to the Criminal Procedure Code of Ukraine was recently adopted, laying down provisions on Ukraine's cooperation with the International Criminal Court. However, the ICC cannot, for objective reasons, investigate and prosecute individuals for – the crime of aggression against Ukraine. That is why the creation of the Special Tribunal – for the Crime of Aggression against Ukraine – will not affect the jurisdiction of the ICC but will only complement its vital work”.

 

A few days ago, the Swiss foreign minister launched an interesting issue into the public debate and said that Switzerland could confiscate frozen Russian assets and use them for the reconstruction of Ukraine. “If we are serious about helping to rebuild Ukraine, we need to think about how we’re going to finance that” he said. Is this a path that you hope will also be adopted by the countries of the European Union? 

“Yes, this is one of the right ways to help rebuild Ukraine: make the money of the criminals go to the reconstruction of what they have destroyed, ravaged, and plundered. Last year, I called on the member states of the G7 to take appropriate legislative and procedural decisions. Ukraine and the European Union have established cooperation on a common policy of search, arrest, and confiscation of the assets of persons involved in war crimes. European Commissioner for Justice Didier Reynders heads the European Commission's task force on assets freezing and confiscation, which actively cooperates with the relevant Ukrainian working group. At the same time, the issue should be addressed comprehensively, considering those systems already introduced by Ukraine, together with its partners. Therefore, in the agenda of the implementation of the international compensation program – whose need is determined by the resolution of the UN General Assembly “Furtherance of remedy and reparations for aggression against Ukraine” of November 14, 2022 – it will be established the Compensation Fund. Such fund will be financed mainly by Russia's uncovered and confiscated assets. Compensation for damages caused by assault will be made at the expense of such goods – for all types of damage caused to individuals, legal entities, and the state. Therefore, it is extremely important that the maximum number of assets, directly or indirectly belonging to sanctioned persons, as well as persons involved in armed aggression in Ukraine, the commission of war crimes, persons sponsoring the war in Ukraine and supporting it, must be frozen, confiscated and subsequently sent to the Compensation Fund for the compensation for all types of damage to the Ukrainians and the restoration of Ukraine”.

 

Minister, is the reconquest of Crimea, as well as the reconquest of Donbas, a strategic objective of Ukraine?

“I am still waiting for the day when journalists will stop wondering if the restoration of the territorial integrity of Ukraine includes the return of Crimea. Tell me please, what makes Crimea different from Kherson, Donetsk, or Luhansk? All this is stolen Ukrainian land, and there is no difference between Simferopol, Sevastopol, or Yalta and the lands of Kharkiv, or Kherson regions that we liberated. Therefore, it is enough to speak of Crimea as something special, for in this way we only help Russian propaganda to create a myth about the special significance of the peninsula. Ukraine will regain all its territories which were stolen and illegally occupied”.

 

The Russian Federation, wrote the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, is preparing for a secret mobilization in Crimea. Is it a real concern? And what can change if this mobilization really takes shape?

“The Kremlin is determined to further escalate hostilities. Russia is trying to take revenge for previous failures. However, they have their plans, and we have ours. I am convinced that they will not succeed. Forced mobilization in the occupied territories represents a serious violation of international humanitarian law. All these Russian crimes are on record, and the day will come when Russia will have to answer for all of this”.

 

Can you explain to those who still have doubts about this issue why Russia behaves like a terrorist state?

“Because there is no other explanation for the barbaric rocket attacks on peaceful Ukrainian cities, and the killing of civilians, other than terrorism. Targeted intimidation of unarmed people to achieve political goals. Mass rocket fire, for example, does not achieve any military objectives, it is simply brutal terror against the people, motivated by Russia's hatred of Ukrainians. Russia's large-scale aggression against Ukraine, which represents the most serious threat to international security since World War II, has been going on for almost a year. The actions of the Russian Federation have been categorically condemned by the international community. Russia's goal concerning Ukraine is the destruction of one of the largest states in Europe and the destruction of the Ukrainian people. During the aggression, the Russians have committed numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity, including the deliberate killing of civilians, carrying out massive rocket attacks on peaceful Ukrainian cities, and the willful destruction of civilian infrastructure. Russian troops systematically violate the norms of international humanitarian law and international law, human rights in Ukraine: deliberate and indiscriminate attacks on the civilian population, their use as hostages and human shields, executions and rapes, forced recruitment and kidnapping, attacks on medical personnel and institutions, use of banned weapons, etc. I am grateful that several national parliaments and international bodies have recognized Russia as a terrorist state, or state sponsor of terrorism, in 2022: the parliaments of Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, the Czech Republic, and the Netherlands, as well as the PACE, the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, and the European Parliament”.

 

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Russia would take military-technical measures on its side of the border if Sweden and Finland join NATO. And he also said that the United States wants to implement "a Hitler-like final solution for the Jews" against Russia. In your opinion, are those who say that it is Putin who behaves not too differently from Hitler right now?

“I find Lavrov's statements shameful when he compares the Russians waging a bloody war of aggression in the Ukraine with the millions of Jews killed by the Nazis during the Holocaust. To represent the Russians as victims after Bucha, Irpin, Mariupol and Dnipro – is the height of cynicism. Furthermore, such statements, referring to the suffering of the Jewish people, cloud the memory of the millions of victims of the Holocaust. And this is not Lavrov's first anti-Semitic statement, demonstrating how deeply rooted anti-Semitism is in Russia's political elites. I must note that the Israeli Foreign Ministry condemned Lavrov's statement, and accused him of distorting history, as did the European Congress recently. I am convinced that every war criminal, in this war, will be brought to justice for the destruction caused and the war crimes committed. Nazi Germany and Putin's Russia are regimes that belong to different eras. Every evil is unique. But the essence of evil is the same: hatred, aggression, genocide and crimes. The atrocities committed by the Russians in Ukraine are the most horrific atrocities in Europe since WWII. The Russians commit these crimes because they are filled with hatred for the Ukrainians and want to destroy us. Not only our state, but also our identity, our culture, our language. They forcibly take Ukrainian children from the occupied territories, give them to Russian families and try to re-educate them, turning them into Russian children. This is a crime of genocide. To hold Russia accountable as a state, as early as February 26, 2022, Ukraine filed a lawsuit with the United Nations International Court of Justice under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This case has already entered history, as 33 states and 1 international organization joined the case on the side of Ukraine, which is an unprecedented number for international justice. Furthermore, on March 16, 2022, the Court issued a binding decision forcing Russia to cease hostilities, and withdraw its troops, from the territory of Ukraine. We are currently working to ensure that the consequences for Russia, of apparent non-compliance with the court order, are as tangible as possible. In addition, based on the appeal of about 30 states, the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court is investigating crimes committed by Russia on the territory of Ukraine. It is also a lengthy process that requires the highest legal attentiveness. But I am convinced that the perpetrators and instigators of the crimes committed in Buch, Irpen, Borodyanka, Izyum, Kharkiv, Mariupol and many other cities of Ukraine – will certainly be punished."

 

What positively impressed you about the Meloni government in supporting Ukraine? And is there a particular message you would like to send to our government?

“For me, the Georgia Meloni government is above all a pro-Italian government. And that is why it is extremely rewarding that, at the same time, this government has taken a clear and consistent position regarding support to Ukraine in the political, military, economic, and humanitarian fields, in the restoration of energy infrastructure, and in the further reconstruction of Ukraine. This is a strong leadership position. We also hope for Italy's support for our European and Euro-Atlantic ambitions. Georgia Meloni and President Zelensky have an extremely good and trusting relationship. The visit of the head of the Italian government to Kiev was a remarkable event, which will strengthen relations between our countries and strengthen Europe overall".

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• Claudio Cerasa Direttore

• Nasce a Palermo nel 1982, vive a Roma da parecchio tempo, lavora al Foglio dal 2005 e da gennaio 2015 è direttore. Ha scritto qualche libro (“Le catene della destra” e “Le catene della sinistra”, con Rizzoli, “Io non posso tacere”, con Einaudi, “Tra l’asino e il cane. Conversazione sull’Italia”, con Rizzoli, “La Presa di Roma”, con Rizzoli, e "Ho visto l'uomo nero", con Castelvecchi), è su Twitter. E’ interista, ma soprattutto palermitano. Va pazzo per i Green Day, gli Strokes, i Killers, i tortini al cioccolato e le ostriche ghiacciate. Due figli.